Alpert traveled to India in 1967 where he met his spiritual teacher, Neem Karoli Baba. Under his guru's guidance, he studied yoga and meditation and received the name Ram Dass, or "servant of God." He has since pursued a variety of spiritual practices.

In 1974 Ram Dass created the Hanuman Foundation, which has developed many projects, including the "Prison-Ashram Project," designed to help inmates grow spiritually during incarceration, and the "Living Dying Project," which provides support for the conscious dying. He is also a co-founder and board member of the Seva Foundation ("service," in Sanskrit), an international organization dedicated to relieving suffering in the world.

An eloquent writer, Ram Dass's most popular book is Be Here Now, which sold over 2 million copies and became a catch-phrase for the 70's spiritual movement. Ram Dass the "holy man" has never been afraid to reveal himself warts and all. His latest book, Still Here, is filled with poignant revelations about his own limitations and neuroses. Picture the image of the holy man as yo-yo dieter, visiting a Jewish bathhouse and comparing fat rolls. Or giving a lecture hiding a bloody leg behind the podium, too proud to admit he stumbled while ascending the stage.

Some people in the guru "business" think Ram Dass could have been even more "successful" if he'd concealed his flaws and generally stuck to dispensing wise homilies. But Ram Dass's friends and followers find his honesty most endearing.

Since his stroke over 2 1/2 years ago, this brilliant, articulate man speaks haltingly but with undiminished spirit. Ram Dass's legacy is captured in a new film entitled Fierce Grace. Original published in part in OPEN EXCHANGE MAGAZINE, October-December 2001:

Bart Brodsky: First, I want to thank you for writing Still Here. It's a wonderful meditation on aging, and preparing for transition. When I started to get into it I was afraid it would be a little bit morbid or depressing, but it was just the opposite. It was real, yet you mix humor and still get into the nitty gritty.

Ram Dass: I got a letter today from the publisher of Tricycle, and she said that she had a lightness after. She had had a heaviness about aging.

BB: And you lifted that.

RD: Yes.

BB: You mention that illness can be a gift of god. And you say, "What a gift the stroke has given me, to finally learn that I don't have to renounce my humanity in order to be spiritual." And you say that you're still learning to "be here now." Does that learning go on and on?

RD: Believe me, endlessly.

(laughs)

RD: I don't know whether there's an end point. I certainly haven't gotten there.

BB: It's wonderful that you are absolutely unafraid to show when you're the student, as opposed to the teacher. When you went to speak to a meditation group that turned out to be a therapy group, and you turned around and said, "teach me!"

RD: And they did, and it was a successful thing.

BB: Where do we find the courage to ask?

RD: For me, it's all a dialog with my guru. And everything he represents he presents to me.

BB: In the issue of OPEN EXCHANGE we're talking about values. Could you explore how your values have changed since you wrote your classic, Be Here Now?

RD: Well, I saw individuality as a value then. And I see it's a hindrance now.

BB: Have you become more compassionate? I sense there is more emphasis in your work in recent years on giving.

RD: At first, it was mainly how I got here. And then I was cataloging compassion and so on, which are the main values of hearing. When I said to my guru—when he was alive—"How can I get enlightened?" He said, "Feed people. And serve people." That's what I do.

BB: Your remind me of a book by Herman Hesse, Journey To The East, where the humble servant turns out to be the enlightened one. Certainly, your own work has been avidly followed by many of us baby boomers. You call yourself an "advanced scout" for our generation. And now we're looking toward growing older—growing old. Fear is a big issue. And you quote Woody Allen, "I don't mind dying; I just don't want to be there when it happens." How do we confront our fears? Maybe dispel them?

RD: There are two "I's" inside us. And we use the "I" which is the ego, and the "I" which is the soul...

BB: You had a beautiful explanation of this in Still Here. I've read many books on cosmic consciousness, but your description was the most approachable and elegant of all.

RD: Well, well well, thank you! My gosh! Nobody's ever said that! That came out of my mind. I got badmouthed when I talked about it.

BB: Really? It's so clear! You even diagram it!

RD: You know, that was a throwback to the planes and levels we used in psychedelia. [Talking about] the "soul" makes most of my Buddhist brethern and sistern blanch.

BB: Why?

RD: Well, they specifically say that the individual separate self is not to be extended. And you go from this incarnation to Nirvana.

BB: For me, your explanation helped remind me of issues [the illusion of the ego and the unboundedness of awareness] that Alan Watts took a whole book to write about. You summarized them very neatly and deftly in one page.

RD: If I can best Alan Watts, you've got me!

BB: (hearty laughs) Not to take anything from him! He's wonderful!

RD: He is wonderful.

BB: You write in Still Here, "Even senility can be an opportunity to strengthen the soul." And you offer several poignant stories of soul communication with people, such as your aunt, who is senile, and others on their death beds. And you say, "Soul awareness is so much bigger than mental awareness. Once you have it, it's yours forever." Can you add anything more?

RD: That means that we have a part of us that does not go through the experience of dying.

BB: A friend of mine recently died and I marveled at the way he met death with grace. He said that it's his time to go, and he left us all feeling better. I shared my feelings about this with another friend who is getting up in years, and he was terribly displeased. He is much more inclined toward Dylan Thomas's "Do Not Go Gentle!"

RD: Yeah, that's such a bad model.

BB: Is there a right way to die?

RD: The right way is the way that the moment suggests for the "dyer." It's not like death is just the moment, this moment, that moment, that moment, and then you die in that moment. The best is to be in the moment. To be in the moment.

BB: Yes.... Yes. You believe that consciousness can't be destroyed by the body. Could you offer anything to a skeptic? What would you say to someone who doesn't understand or doesn't sense it?

RD: (long pause) Our rational minds are a part of god. And to be a part of something cannot understand the whole.

BB: You mentioned that when we let the dying self-medicate for pain, that they tend to use fewer painkillers than the doctors tend to give. People don't necessarily want to overmedicate because they want to experience the moment. Please talk about the tradeoff.

RD: It's a constant battle for a person. Painkillers and consciousness. You want to get rid of the pain, and then you want to end up with your consciousness clear. And the painkillers that fully work kill your conscousness.

BB: Is there a way to embrace the pain so as to need fewer painkillers? Does meditation help?

RD: Yup.

BB: You also mention that it's natural to feel depression as we grow older. And it can be part of looking inward. Do you feel that, perhaps, psychiatry overmedicates with antidepressants such as Prozac?

RD: Oh, dear! Oh, dear! Oh, Dear!

BB: (laughs) I guess I do mean to put you on the spot! Go with it!

RD: I'll tell you, the friends I've had that have used Prozac and associated drugs have paid in the consciousness realm.

BB: I've always felt that it can be good to work through things, when you can.

RD: Yeah, when you can.

BB: As I was reading in your book about what happens physically when you die, I rebelled. I started thinking about all the other books I've seen on life extension and physical immortality. My ego wants to stay around. If the technology were possible for you to upload your mind into a computer, or an android, or the intergalactic internet, would you do it?

RD: No.

BB: Absolutely not?

RD: Absolutely not! This model I've got here—in this incarnation it's a limited model and the next time will be advanced.

BB: Your faith is very strong.

RD: Oh, yes!

BB: You had a wonderful quote from the channel Emmanual, "Death is absolutely safe." Is that because of your faith that consciousness continues?

RD: Yep. That's right, because all I've done this year is strengthen people's faith in the idea that they look at death, at illness, at aging, and they have faith.

BB: Like you, I also grew up Jewish, and I also found myself attracted to eastern religions. When someone in school asked, "Do we believe in heaven, the rabbi said, "Don't worry about that. Concentrate in living this life." That sounds a lot like "Be here now!" Are you a Jewish Buddhist?

RD: I am a Jewish-Buddhist-Hindu.

BB: (laughs) Okay! But do the different philosophies mix easily?

RD: No, because the Jews, when they say that, they mean here, in this incarnation. And my "here and now" [is] the baklava of consciousness.

BB: (laughs) In the 60s, you and Leary and Huxley and Ginsberg set out to explode the myths of materialist culture and were incredibly successful in getting media coverage—and scorn as "bad boys." Did the emphasis on psychedelics get in the way of the spiritual message? Would you have done anything different?

RD: (long pause) I think it unfolded as is should. I think it was the avatar of the 60s.

BB: Finally, I want to thank you for the healing quality of your prose in Still Here. You say, "I want to be a part of that network of compassion which brings the multitude of beings back to the one, to love, to consciousness, to all of it." Do you have any special words for our readers?

RD: It isn't bad... if you accept your life as grace.

BB: That's a beautiful way to end. For the record, I want to acknowledge you for your work, both individually and through the Hanuman Project, with people who are ill. Your compassion and generosity continues to inspire and certainly is going to live on and on. Thank you for that!

RD: Thank you for that—my goodness!

BB: Normally I don't do it, but I'd like to make a copy of this transcript available if you want to do some tinkering and editing.

RD: My policy is: Send it out! Don't worry!

BB: I admire your courage—on all levels. Truly, you're an inspiration. We'll play some more, another time.

RD: We'll play some more...