I've often wondered what it would be like to interview Michael Toms, who is renowned for making his radio guests comfortable and eliciting pearls of wisdom. Not surprisingly, he turned out to be a gem! From OPEN EXCHANGE MAGAZINE, March-April 2000 —Bart Brodsky

Bart Brodsky: Let's talk about ways in which people can make their careers work for all their needs, not just the financial ones. Your latest book, True Work, is a wonderful meditation on doing what you love. It's elegant in its simplicity. And it's also a personal statement, filled with intriguing quotes from many of the wise people you've encountered over the years. One quote from Studs Terkel jumped out at me: "Most of us have jobs that are too small for our spirits." Could you elaborate?

Michael Toms: Many people are doing work without enough meaning or purpose. Studs was speaking to the fact that many people in America get their meaning and purpose elsewhere, not from work. At the same time, many people don't even know that they can find it elsewhere.

Bart: Our culture doesn't necessarily support meaningful work.

Michael: Right. And the culture has the bias toward, "You do the job, get the career, just keep going." Our society is materialistically oriented. I don't believe every poll I read, but according to polls most people are dissatisfied with their work. Even if you make them half wrong, there's still a lot of unhappy people. Our book was written from our own experience of following our passion for 27 years now. We're still students of the craft.

Bart: I especially loved the story about how you decided to move your operations up north 100 miles from San Francisco. You weren't sure that you could afford to move or that it would work from a practical standpoint, so you were hesitant. Then your son asked you, "What would you really want to do if you had all your wishes?" So you decided to act on your desires, in the moment, and it worked out. Wasn't that a big risk?

Michael: Definitely. But life is always risky. If there's a principle of life that I've learned, it is that life is a risk. That's the name of the game. We live in a society obsessed with control. But the only thing we can completely control is our experience of what happens to us. That means that we need to be present and awake. Be present—this is what's happening!

Bart: This is it! But should everyone take those kinds of risks in their careers or in their lives? Do you recommend that kind of risk for everyone or just certain courageous kinds of people?

Michael: That's a good question. It's important to take risks, but you don't have to jump off the cliff into an abyss. As we say in the book, you can take baby steps. And these baby steps are little risks. Everybody should be taking little risks, because if you don't take little risks, then the big ones never happen! And, of course, the other side of risk is opportunity. If you don't take a risk you'll never have new opportunities. Otherwise, you're dormant—basically stuck! A lot of people get to their later years in life this way. Joe Campbell used to talk about finding your ladder up against the wrong wall. "What did I do? Where's my life?" Hey, it's right here. This is it!

Bart: You and Justine talk about when you quit your corporate jobs. You say, "It's important to listen to the call and not let your rational mind get in the way." You're not suggesting doing something irrational, are you?

Michael: No, I'm talking about paying attention to your inner voice, paying attention to the heart. Science has shown us that the heart is made of 65% of the neurons that are in the brain. So there's scientific evidence to show that there is a thinking heart. And this has also been proven with heart transplant patients who are then thinking thoughts they've never thought before and saying things they've never said before. They would go back to a relative of the heart donor who would say, "My husband used to say that." We think as much with the hearts as we do with the brains. Our culture has emphasized the intellectual part, the rational part. It's ironic that the leading edge of science is showing that there's more to it than that! It just proves to me what the great traditions have taught from time immemorial: There's an invisible world, an inner world, and we all have that inside of us. Most of us are very good at covering up the inner voice that's speaking to us all the time. What we have to do is find ways to connect with that inner voice, and listen to it.

Bart: What are your favorite techniques for connecting with your inner voice?

Michael: Finding ways to quiet the mind, meditation, reflection. There are lots of ways to meditate. You don't have to just go sit on a pillow. Try walking in the park, hanging out with wildlife, playing with your grandchildren, working in the garden. There are lots of ways to slow down the pace. It's very important to have those spaces in life where you can just be. During the course of the day, I have lots of reminders in my home and in my office, things to remind me what I am here for and why am I doing what I'm doing. There's never a day that passes that I don't feel gratitude for the work I'm doing and awe at what I do. But it's not just me. Everybody has their journey.

Bart: Your partner Justine has an eloquent line in the book. After she took some time off in the middle of a work week for a morning swim, she writes, "That morning swim continues to work its magic on my day."

Michael: Of course! If there are any ways in which you can shift your perspective, leave the fast lane, do it! There are a myriad of ways.

Bart: Regarding toxic work, how do you know when to stay with a job versus when to quit it?

Michael: This comes up in our workshops quite often. It's an individual journey. There's no magic answer. You have to look at what's going on in your own life and pay attention to the signals you're getting from your heart, your brain, your intuition, and put it all together. If you're really sincerely questing, the universe will provide clues. So it's important that you're awake enough to pay attention to the clues.

Bart: Can you give an example of how you've helped a student in your workshop find more meaning in their own work?

Michael: When David came to our seminar, Right Living in a Crazy World, he had his own janitorial business. David found out about the seminar because one of his clients was a bookstore who carried our tapes, and he listened to the tapes while he was working. As result David decided to follow his own passion, which was writing. He first started as a volunteer writing columns for a local publication, meanwhile still doing janitorial work. Sometime—quite often—you have to subsidize your passion. One thing led to another, and he started getting paid as a staff member of that publication. Then he came around and did an article about New Dimensions. We eventually offered him a job, and he's been with us for 12 years!

Bart: I love that! That's really completing the circle. Now, here's a wonderful fantasy. If you were president, what would you do to encourage more "True Work"?

Michael: Look at all the work that needs to be done, like repairing our infrastructure—roads, bridges, schools, and the like. I would reduce the defense budget by 50% or more—it is kind of misnamed, because it's a "making war" budget—then I would create full employment repairing the infrastructure. In the 1930's the government created the WPA and hired writers, artists, and poets of all kinds. On Market Street in San Francisco there are still murals painted during the WPA days. I would resurrect something like that to emphasize the creativity in our culture that really isn't recognized now. If I were president I'd look at redirecting priorities.

Bart: Subsidizing art is where it's at! Let me know when you're on the ballot! (laughs)

Bart: Do you have a message to share with OPEN EXCHANGE readers about your upcoming appearance at the Whole Life Expo?

Michael: Whatever you're able to do as an individual, do it. It doesn't matter how seemingly small. It makes a difference to the whole. It's not that you "create your own reality," because you really can't control everything. But you do create your own internal reality that interacts with the rest of the world.

Bart: You sound like an existentialist.

Michael: I like to say I'm an Existential-Buddhist-Christian-Vedantic-Taoist! (hearty laughs) That's a way of saying I've been able to garner wisdom from some amazing people on the planet, and that continues to help me form my own life.

Bart: That's a good final thought. Thank you very much for talking with us.

Michael: My pleasure!