Ralph Metzner On Leary, Ram Dass, Shamanism &
'Alchemical Divination'

Long before his involvement with Green Psychology and shamanism, Ralph Metzner wrote books on LSD and altered states with Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert in the 1960s. In many respects Ralph strikes me as more "down-to-earth" than his famous cohorts. Whereas Leary played provocateur Alpert became Ram Dass the holy man, Ralph has presented himself simply as a psychotherapist and educator. Currently he is offering a workshop on "Alchemical Divination" in OPEN EXCHANGE's Seminars category. It's guaranteed to alter your consciousness—naturally!  ---Bart Brodsky

Bart Brodsky: You worked as a psychologist with Tim Leary and Richard Alpert at Harvard, and you wrote with them. Did you stay in touch with Richard Alpert after he became Ram Dass?

Ralph Metzner: Yes. And with Tim Leary, too. After he became a social prophet.

BB: Yes. You wrote a manual with them based on The Tibetan Book of the Dead, on altered states of consciousness and God consciousness. Several years ago, when I talked with Leary, he was critical of the "back to nature" movement and believed in science as a tool to engineer the human species. Would you agree?

RM: I don't see those as going in opposite directions at all. Not a back-to-nature movement like "eat granola and wear sandals and go around barefoot hunter-gatherers"—that's not the point. The point is just to reestablish ecological consciousness, the development of ecological consciousness, or eco-psychology, or Green Psychology. That was one of my books. It's a study of the psychological aspect of the ecological crisis. Basically, the eco-crisis is caused by human beings. Therefore, it's a function of mistaken perceptions and attitudes and behaviors.

BB: Leary seemed to think that human beings could be improved by artificial means. Ram Dass really took a different path. I once asked him if he ever wanted his consciousness uploaded into a computer, and he said, "No. Absolutely not."

RM: Leary didn't really, either. When it came right down to the end of it, he cancelled all the plans he had previously talked about, about using cryonics to freeze his brain, and all that kind of thing.

BB: Did you have any input with him in that regard?

RM: Not really, no. I met with him several times in the last year or so before he passed. But I didn't share his enthusiasm for the latest technology. I like computers just as much as anybody—but I'm not so interested in space migration. I'm much more interested in focusing energy on ecological, economic, and political conditions on earth. And the possibility of extraterrestrial contact, but not by going to other planets, but rather, by becoming aware of visitors from other worlds who are already here, which is a little different.

BB: What do you mean?

RM: I don't know that we necessarily want to go into that. It's not really part of my public work. My work with Leary and Alpert encompassed a five or six year period at Harvard, and then we wrote together, and after that we stayed friends. Ram Dass and I are actually writing a book the moment that covers that period.

BB: Wonderful!

RM: You know, Leary has several autobiographies covering his views on it, and this will cover ours. Plus, it's time to take stock again and look back in retrospect at what we've learned.

BB: That will be eagerly anticipated. Your own organization is named The Green Earth Foundation. I know that metaphors are very important in your work, and it struck me that your earlier work was about God consciousness, really about "heaven on earth," or going to heaven, finding heaven. And yet, you chose the green earth metaphor. Why the change of focus?

RM: I don't know that my earlier work was about heaven on earth. My book, The Psychedelic Experience, was about psychedelic explorations in consciousness. Since the psychedelic days, my interest has always been the expansion of consciousness. And I think in essence that Leary's had also remained that basic thing: the expansion of consciousness. I got more deeply involved in expanding consciousness by other means, Eastern systems of yoga, meditation, shamanic journeywork, which I learned from anthropologists like Michael Harner. And in various, deep psychological methods for exploring the unconscious like Stan Grof had developed with his Holotropic Breathwork, and others. So I explored all those. I was a practicing psychologist and still am. The two main courses that I taught at The Institute of Integral Studies, where I taught for 30 years and just retired last year, are the courses on the altered states of consciousness and their role in psychological growth and spiritual practices in healing and creativity, and so forth. Not just drug induced, but by any means. How do you expand consciousness? How do you do it, and how do you understand it? What kind of understanding of reality comes from those experiences? I see one of the main things that happens to people when they take a psychedelic substance, analogous to people who have near-death experiences or mystical experiences in the past, in religious language—it changes their world view. It changes their understanding of life and death and human life and their own nature. It gives them psychological insights into their personality and how the developed, and philosophical insights into the nature of living and dying and what it means to be a human being on this planet. And that's why what I see happening in the 60s—and I'm still very much involved with that—is a series of social/cultural movements of collective conscious transformation. The environmental movement took off in the 60s. And that's a consciousness expanding movement. So is the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement. Although they seem, when you first look at them, as being "counter-cultural" movements, in opposition to the existing system, at the deepest level that's not the purpose behind them. The purpose behind it is to live in a way that allows for the expansion of awareness and the unfolding of people's potentials and possibilities in a peaceful and creative way. I argue that those movements grew out of peoples' experiences of consciousness expansion. I don't say that they all were based on drug experience, not at all.

BB: Can you expand consciousness in the same way, with or without drugs?

RM: Yes, absolutely. After I worked with Leary and Alpert for about five or six years I got involved in the study of yoga and meditation. I studied in a western school of yoga called Actualism, or Agni Yoga, which is light fire yoga, for 10 years, attentively, without any drug use whatsoever. So, it's a meditative method. And I still use these methods and work with them in my work, and I teach them in therapy. Consciousness can be expanded in many, many different ways. And then there are particular systems, three main traditional systems of expanding consciousness: shamanism, yoga, and alchemy, with shamanism being the oldest, and yoga more developed in the East, and alchemy more developed in the West. And there are systems of transformation on every level. The physical level would be healing. The emotional/psychological level would be what we could call psychotherapy, personal growth. And the mental level more philosophical understanding. And the spiritual level, coming in contact with the Divine. The Divine Within, not the Divine in some transcendental deity. What these experiences point to is a concept of the sacred within everything. And this is in accord with the indigenous traditions the world over who see the sacred not in a transcendent deity, in heaven "up there," separated from ordinary reality, but inherent in the natural world. That's called animism. And that's what I think is the attraction behind movements like shamanism or the use of natural medicines, plant medicines, both in health and healing and in the pursuit of sacred visionary plants, and the appeal of natural methods of farming. It's not that they're against the technology, but they want to go to where's there a more direct psychic and spiritual recognition of the independence of the entire world, of all of human life with plants and animals and trees, forests....

BB: So, did you consciously use the green earth metaphor to reflect your interest in naturalism?

RM: That is the purpose of the green earth metaphor. It is an educational, ecological organization that's dedicated to the integration of human consciousness with ecological values, values of sustainability, diversity, and so forth. And a recognition of the sacred and the spiritual.

BB: I've often wondered why some people seem to grasp the concept of sustainability and the fragility of civilization immediately, while others—and you might want to include the current Washington administration—don't seem to understand it at all. They seem to think that we can do whatever we please to the Earth without consequence. I know many environmentalists are frustrated that their message is not being heard, or that people won't make the necessary changes. Is environmental consciousness innate or learned? And how can we develop it?

RM: Very tricky and complicated question. You know, I taught for years a course in what are the changes in worldview that are taking place, and that need to take place, that can take place. And I was very influenced by people of influence like Thomas Berry, a philosopher and theologian who propounded the idea that the creation myth of our time is given by evolutionary cosmology developed by science. But it's separate, you see, and so we have to bring the two together. His book with Brian Swimm, The Universe Story. And by people like Fritjof Capra and Joanna Macy, who teach deep ecology in conjunction with Buddhism, where everything is seen as a network of interrelatedness and interconnectedness. And this is very different from the view of mainstream science. I'm sure there are individuals in the current administration who have varying degrees of understanding of the situation, but there are institutional systems within society, political and economic systems which have existed for a very long time, not to mention the religious ideologies that back them up, that have these kinds of biases that see the human being and human culture as being in a dominating and dominant position. That it's necessary that for human life to survive that we have to dominate and exploit natural resources. And that nature is basically inert resources that we can use and should use for human betterment. This is a view that's diametrically opposite to the view traditional people, including the view of our own traditional ancestors.

BB: Yes.

RM: I became very interested in ancestral mythology, pre-Christian mythology of ancient times, the matricentric goddess cultures of old Europe that existed thousands of years before Christianity, and even before the advent of classical religions of Greece and Rome. A whole different worldview existed, a different culture that didn't have warfare and didn't worship a deity that was "up there" in the sky somewhere.

BB: Do you make the connection in your work as a psychologist between personal happiness and appreciating environmental consciousness on some level where one isn't trying to dominate others or the environment?

RM: I would attribute it to writings that Theodore Roszak and others have put together on eco-psychology, and my own book, Green Psychology, where, for example, I look at the history of the whole culture, where our consciousness became separated. And then, what are some of the ways that individuals can reconnect, like shamanism or the vision quest. As a therapist, I will incorporate these kinds of practices. I will recommend that you go on a vision quest or just empty yourself, fast, disengage from all of the structures in your life, and just engage with the natural world, in a humble way, to find a vision for your life. It's a very powerful tradition. This is sort of like what my old friend and colleague Tim Leary meant by "dropping out," except, he might have said that you should disengage permanently—although he never really practiced that himself. He didn't become a hermit on a desert island somewhere. He became very much engaged, more politically engaged as he got older!

BB: I always understood that the idea of "dropping out" was the time out to get oneself together, and tuning back in was then at a higher level.

RM: Yes, exactly! In essence, that's what he meant originally. Although, he was a trickster, so he would say sometimes things to be provocative and confuse people.

BB: Do you have anything to add to the legacy of the early 60s whereby Ginsberg and Huxley and others wanted to help society transcend its addiction to materialism?

RM: I agree completely with that. That's one of the core metaphors of understanding the psychopathology of our culture—addiction. I have a chapter in my book Green Psychology where I talk about different metaphors. How can we understand what happened to—Al Gore called it—our dysfunctional civilization. But why? How did that happen? What does it mean, really? An addiction to technology? Some people say we're addicted to fossil fuels. Even our president—

BB: Yes, addicted to oil.

RM: Addicted to oil, as a culture. Which means you're stuck in a system of meeting your needs which has become destructive to yourself and all your relations. When it happens to an individual they have to go engage in a recovery process, but it's not easy.

BB: We're all in recovery, right?

RM: Yes, we're all in recovery! My friend Chellis Glendenning wrote a wonderful book called, I'm In Recovery From Western Civilization. I often then say "I'm a recovering psychologist."

BB: What can participants expect to learn at your upcoming workshop on Alchemical Divination?

RM: The term Alchemical means a system, like shamanism and yoga, of transformation. It uses the language of alchemy, the transmutation of the elements, the generating of gold, like a precious, high-level kind of consciousness, from dark, depressed states of consciousness. That's the transmutation of consciousness. Divination means accessing sources of knowledge within yourself. Usually people think of divination as being like the I-Ching or astrology or Tarot, the runes and so forth. The basic process is the process of asking a question and getting an answer. And this is the way that I understand shamanic journeys, whether done with drumming or with plants, that you do them not just to have a "trip," but you do them to ask a question and get an answer. And the two kinds of questions that people ask about are questions that have to do with healing something or solving a problem that comes from the past. Healing questions always relate to the past, disentangling yourself from past conditions, past shocks or traumas. And the other set of questions has to do with the future, seeking guidance for your life, or instructions, or vision. The vision for your life is really a vision of what to do. It's not just the vision like a television movie or something. In the vision you see yourself doing something. So when somebody has a visionquest or has a vision for their life, which they might have as a child or spontaneously, the vision for being a doctor or a healer or scientist, then you put that into practice. So the divination methods that I've developed and tested out over the past 25 years are methods that structure this kind of inquiry. It's basically an inquiry into your higher self, to your inner wisdom self, to your source of intuition, intuitive knowledge, however you conceive it. So it's not religious in that sense, but it's a structured inquiry. You ask certain questions and then you obtain answers which you then apply in your life. It's not just a therapy method, because you might go into your childhood or into a past life or into the prenatal period in order to understand how you became the person you've become. And ultimately questions about the past would be, "Where did I originally come from?" "What's the purpose of my being on this earth?" "As a spiritual being who has a soul, why did I even incarnate?"

BB: My gosh! In a few minutes we've gone from the beginning of time, into the present, toward the future. That would be a wonderful journey.

RM: Divinations could be specific, like "What's the future of my marriage?" "Or my career?" "Or my creativity?" But most basically, once again, "What's the purpose of my life? What's my destiny?" And your destiny is kind of a future-oriented thing.

BB: So your work really helps people to be able to focus on their own divination, their own lives.

RM: Exactly. You experience divinations, and they involve a meditative state of consciousness, not intense, not using any drugs or anything like that, but through meditation and reinforced by rhythmic rattling or drumming method, which is simply a way of helping concentration. It's like tracking. It's sort of what people we call psychics might do intuitively, combined with the life fire energy methods which function to purify or cleanse the channels, so you can determine and see more clearly what answers you're getting.

BB: That leads me to my last question. Have fun with this one! This issue's theme is "Magic & Miracles," and I want to know if you believe in the "water to wine" type miracles or ESP, mind over matter, or just everyday simple miracles like enjoying a sunset or falling in love.

RM: [laughs] A miracle is just a natural phenomenon that we don't understand! There are miracles all around us all the time. You know, every time a child looks at you with laughter in their eyes and love in their face, that's a miracle. Or a flower unfolding its petals is a miracle, or a rainbow suddenly appearing in the sky, spontaneously offering its gift of beauty. That's a miracle!

BB: You see the transcendence in the everyday.

RM: I try to. I think it's something that we all have the potential to go there. Not so much the transcendent, but the sacred. There's always the possibility of transcendence, not transcendence in the sense of detachment, but transcendent—I'm really a follower of the Dali Lama and his way of balancing wisdom and compassion. You have the equanimity, the even heartedness of wisdom, but you also have the compassion. If you just have the equanimity you can become detached.

BB: I appreciate your distinction between transcendent and sacred, and I will try to "be here now," to quote a friend.

[Both laugh.]

RM: Yes, that's right!

BB: Is there anything that you would like to add?

RM: I could keep talking for several hours!

BB: I really appreciate your taking the time, and maybe we can do this again!

RM; Absolutely! I'd be happy to.